Poll

How much is a fair price for a visibly imperfect diamond that would cost about $25-30k if it was VS1

$15000
0 (0%)
$10000
1 (14.3%)
$5000
4 (57.1%)
A buck three eighty nine and a Quarter
2 (28.6%)

Total Members Voted: 7

Author Topic: How Little is a 4ct I2 Diamond Worth  (Read 5175 times)

Offline Diamondsbylauren

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How Little is a 4ct I2 Diamond Worth
« on: July 14, 2014, 08:31:40 PM »
Hi Everyone,
This is part of the continuing saga of a close associate of ours who purchased a large quantity of brown rough from the Argyle Mining Company.
The amounts of money involved are staggering.
The issue that has really put a fly in the ointment is a fairly high percentage of "wheel tragedies".
These people cut some lovely makes- which takes a lot of work.
Just when the stone is about done, a feather suddenly becomes totally visible in a stone that clean, a few seconds before.
It's like something explodes inside the diamond.
This is a 4.01ct Radiant.
Really nicely cut.
Lovely honey type color- with great brilliance....even in spite of the.....well, this.





We place a very high priority on relationships- not only with our clients- but also our suppliers.
They really don't know how much (little) such a stone might be worth.
unfortunately there's more.....

Anyway, they're asking us to try and find out.
I am thinking that we will list this diamond.
If it sells, we know the price.

If the stone was clean, it would be worth quite a bit in today's market.
There are quite a few stones from this particular parcel.
Some are VS- which are somewhat easier to evaluate.
To figure out if they made, or lost money, they have to find out what the bottom end is worth.

It will still look nice once set - imperfect, but lively still, because the cut is really nice.
Any and all thoughts welcome.
David
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Offline Trinkette

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Re: How Little is a 4ct I2 Diamond Worth
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2014, 01:13:42 PM »
Having that happen must hurt. : (

Perhaps, a stone like this might best be suited for a pendant, alongside other stones, where it doesn't get the close-up inspection that a ring gem might get. <shrug> Also, I'm curious to see an in-hand shot, at a distance that is more like what the naked eye would see.

Offline clgwli

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Re: How Little is a 4ct I2 Diamond Worth
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2014, 03:11:54 PM »
I've been thinking about this for some time and I am still not 100% sure... maybe between $5-10K but... I dunno...

Some would pay for it and others not.  But it is still 4ct though brown.  Makes it tough to decide.
Elaine aka Squiggly
elaine@diamondsbylauren.com

Offline Diamondsbylauren

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Re: How Little is a 4ct I2 Diamond Worth
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2014, 03:27:04 PM »
Having that happen must hurt. : (

Perhaps, a stone like this might best be suited for a pendant, alongside other stones, where it doesn't get the close-up inspection that a ring gem might get. <shrug> Also, I'm curious to see an in-hand shot, at a distance that is more like what the naked eye would see.

Good point Trink- I'll get an arm's length shot for you
David
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Online oldmancoyote

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Re: How Little is a 4ct I2 Diamond Worth
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2014, 04:08:13 PM »
Don't take the second vote on $1 3 89 and a quarter seriously - but it's a quite indeterminate amount and that's how I feel about this one. It definitely has to be sold set; I think most people (myself included) would have a problem with the loose stone that doesn't exist in reality - at the end of the day many people buy rubies and emeralds that are at least as included, and pay a pretty penny for them.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 04:08:36 PM by oldmancoyote »

Offline Diamondsbylauren

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Re: How Little is a 4ct I2 Diamond Worth
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2014, 10:06:54 PM »
OMC- I did not understand this part of your post-
snip... It definitely has to be sold set; I think most people (myself included) would have a problem with the loose stone that doesn't exist in reality..snip

i think we agree -The stone does need to be set.
What did you mean by the part about not existing in reality?

See, I'm a bit torn.
I don't want to see my friend- the guy who bought, and cut these stones- I really don;t want to see him get hurt financially.
Of course, neither do I wish to hurt us.
Putting the stones in rings will involve a lot of expense.
Which may indeed be worth it- but to even begin to conceive the jewelry, we have to agree on a baseline cost with the cutter. My gut is telling me we'd need to sell this diamond for $10,000 to maintain the value structure we offer. It does fit with our overall philosophy- we don't want to be the cheapest- we want to have a great product at a great price. We'd rather overpay ever so slightly for the best stone, than get a bargain n a non desirable stone.
Does this one fit the requirements?
Maybe we need to take the leap of faith and set her.
the stone is quite nice in person- and large.

We can probably put together very nice ring that could sell for $12,500....maybe that's the way to go.


I'll put up another one soon.....
David
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Online oldmancoyote

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Re: How Little is a 4ct I2 Diamond Worth
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2014, 03:14:35 AM »
Sorry for being unclear - the "that" before "does not exist in reality" refers to the problem, not the diamond.

What I was trying to say is that when seeing the stone loose there is (on my part, at least) a perception that it's not going to be worth very much; yes, it's big, but it doesn't look like something I'd like to have; I wouldn't be happy paying even the $5000 you put as the lowest "defined" option in the poll.

Once set, I believe the feather will be less visible and the perception of the problem will be far less - at the end of the day, it remains a 4 ct + stone: getting it at $2000/carat or so (plus whatever setting - I tend to agree with Trinkette that a ring doesn't sound the best option) may well be interesting.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 03:17:17 AM by oldmancoyote »

Offline Trinkette

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Re: How Little is a 4ct I2 Diamond Worth
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2014, 10:17:46 AM »
This is an interesting conundrum and conversation, so I'm wading in a bit deeper with the disclaimer that I'm writing solely from my POV as a potential consumer looking at the uber-closeup photos.

Even if this diamond were to be set, as I see it now, it's not something I envision myself purchasing either loose or as a ring and I generally have a soft spot for big brownish diamonds, especially when they're priced well. However, I admit to liking clean stones over high-color stones and sometimes pure-color stones, so there's the trade-off. Certainly, other folks may come at the equation from the other side.

Large or not, this diamond is still drastically flawed. And thanks to decades of diamond industry marketing, a good part of what consumers expect and pay for in diamond gems is their "exceptionalism" those combined qualities which make the gemstones unique and beautiful, or "precious." In this case, the critical cracks in this stone have, quite literally, chipped away at the diamond's exceptionalism.

Honestly, it would be near-impossible for any critically flawed diamond, regardless of size, to meet my expectation of a desirous, precious gemstone. However, again, that's just me. Someone else may think this is a steal at, let's say, $5K maybe even $10K, and they'd be happy to go with it.

Also, if this were a fancy pink or yellow, without modifiers, I think it might attract more potential buyers and you might get away with a bigger price tag.

Still, I'm curious to see a photo of what this stone looks like from a normal perspective. It might become more of a temptation. Moreover, there may very well be an opportunity for an interesting, unique piece of jewelry. Again, a pendant, or perhaps, a gold bangle (yes, the gold would certainly be pricey) set with many stones, this being just one of several. If one insists on a ring, maybe there is something one can do to confuse the eye (perhaps, setting in all-gold would help?). Regardless, in each case, you're still spending "extra" to try to camouflage the problem.

One final consideration (not from a consumer POV): once the stone is set into jewelry with a DBL stamp on it and it's "out there" on someone's finger or around someone's neck or wrist, it becomes an "ambassador," so to speak, for DBL. Once set, can this stone live up to the DBL hallmark?

Offline Rexelle

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Re: How Little is a 4ct I2 Diamond Worth
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2014, 01:55:54 PM »
Again, as if you need any confirmation on this one D,.... I second WSS ^^^^^.
Trink, you hit it on the head!

As someone who loves to be an "ambassador" for DBL, who touts and shows off my DBL piece to anyone who will look, and as much as I LOVE large diamonds, brown diamonds, AND I love a bargain, I cannot see myself wearing that ON MY HAND, not in any DBL setting  ...........Now, possibly as a pendant ? Perhaps, but I don't know what it looks like IRL, as far as size/sparkle goes until you post us some more pictures.

On price, it'd have to be a real deal!!I most definitely would not be spending anywhere close to 10k, (that's still $2500 a carat for a diamond that LOOKS pretty included on a very good day!)..................Even 5k?...............I'm not sure at this point.

Even tho' the inclusions are white feathers from what I'm seeing,..........there's allot going on in there.  If this were a contender for some earrings, or something like this was, only smaller, then again, possibly,......

Sorry D, I'm thinking that they're gonna have to eat it big-time on this one!!! Bummer....................

M


Offline Diamondsbylauren

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Re: How Little is a 4ct I2 Diamond Worth
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2014, 12:48:35 PM »
Very good points raised-
We do want to be proud of what we make, no doubt.
Having said that, my position is that what the diamond industry wants to establish as parameters are there to be dismantled, to our advantage.
IOW, we could say, "well, DBL should not set O-P color stones because we've been taught by DeBeers marketing they are inferior to D color diamonds."SO that part of the argument is a bit lost on me.
if we can find a way to make a ring that will please someone, I'm more concerned about the individual end user as opposed to how it will affect our reputations.
We're already known as the home for Wayward and lost diamonds.:)

The price and design issues raised?
Spot on.
I need to get some more shots for you guys
David
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Offline Rexelle

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Re: How Little is a 4ct I2 Diamond Worth
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2014, 05:54:16 PM »
Very good points raised-
We do want to be proud of what we make, no doubt.
Having said that, my position is that what the diamond industry wants to establish as parameters are there to be dismantled, to our advantage.
IOW, we could say, "well, DBL should not set O-P color stones because we've been taught by DeBeers marketing they are inferior to D color diamonds." SO that part of the argument is a bit lost on me.
if we can find a way to make a ring that will please someone, I'm more concerned about the individual end user as opposed to how it will affect our reputations.
We're already known as the home for Wayward and lost diamonds.:)

The price and design issues raised?
Spot on.
I need to get some more shots for you guys

Yep..... we'd like more shots!!

But to clarify where I've highlighted in your comments,........it's not that I think that DBL needs to "push" the limits because the Marketing gurus have taught me that I1 and below graded diamonds are not valuable, and so DBL should have them, since no one else does, .......it's that I personally think they are NOT as pretty! I have a hard time convincing myself that such a stone could be set, and made to look attractive TO ME in a ring. I guess I'm just not that kinda gal. Sorry.
I know there are those out there that want that 'smokey' look that some inclusions give, ..... but that ain't me. I unfortunately favor clarity over color or size in this case. I'd buy a stone you graded K-L-M or below, (and have !), as an SI1, since I can tolerate that factor lessening my bill for my sparklies. Equally, I'd buy a brownish-yellow, or W-X knowing DBL could work it's "magic" when the stone was set....... but I'm not certain that even YOUR elves can fix what I see in that stone that affect how much value I would place on it because of the visual impact of the inclusions. I guess it all comes down to what you value most, clarity over size in this case,......

Am I making sense???? Hope this makes my schnookus comments clear as mud! Ha!

M
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 05:55:17 PM by Rexelle »

Offline Diamondsbylauren

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Re: How Little is a 4ct I2 Diamond Worth
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2014, 03:43:10 PM »
ALl great points Rexie!
I'm sure you also agree that extreme items are generally polarizing. This would definitely have a far higher hate, on the love/hate polls.....
But at the same time, looking at, and holding the diamond, it feels likely to me someone will love it...just at what price.....
David
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Offline clgwli

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Re: How Little is a 4ct I2 Diamond Worth
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2014, 05:09:40 PM »
Can we see a shot of it on a woman's hand loose possibly?

Also just cannot remember what we read, but does the I2 feather pose a big durability risk?  Or even a small one?
Elaine aka Squiggly
elaine@diamondsbylauren.com

Offline Diamondsbylauren

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Re: How Little is a 4ct I2 Diamond Worth
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2014, 12:23:18 PM »
Great question about durability Squig.
A polished diamond undergoes such a tremendous about of stress, heat and pressure on the wheel- you would never be able to introduce even 1/10,000,000th the pressure during normal wear.
So, no, the iperfections, which have already been stresssed to the max are highly unlikely to cause any subsequent damage.

Having said that, ANY diamond can break with even small pressure is applied, in exactly manner, in exactly the right plane.
Basically a D/IF can break when dropped- although that's a one in a million shot.
David
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Offline shiba

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Re: How Little is a 4ct I2 Diamond Worth
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2014, 10:47:19 PM »
 :hello: I'm baaack....

My 0.02, I tend to have a love for the unusual and can accept some types of inclusions....but the price has to be right. We have all seen the frozen spit that is marketed as I3 and yet some people accept and choose to purchase those stones. So there is a seat for every saddle, so to speak. Sometimes it might take a looong time to find that particular buyer though. I think DBL carries some of the more unusual stones, which I adore. Depending on how it looks from an in person perspective, the size makes it something I might consider.

From a business perspective, based on R1674 having been around for quite some time, it may not be the type of stone that DBL clientele are looking for.

I think we need a shot a little closer, like a person was examining it in person.

Online oldmancoyote

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Re: How Little is a 4ct I2 Diamond Worth
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2014, 04:07:19 AM »
I think we need a shot a little closer, like a person was examining it in person.
I don't think it's a question of "closer": on my screen (15" laptop), David's hand is about 1.5x mine "at screen distance" and the diamond is about as large as it would be in reality. If you go closer, then you get to a "loupe" view i.e. the first photos in the thread. The "issue" is the glass/plastic on top, in my view, and the fact that a still photo is excellent at either showing or not showing inclusions, but it doesn't provide a realistic view of them...

Offline clgwli

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Re: How Little is a 4ct I2 Diamond Worth
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2014, 08:54:11 AM »
Great question about durability Squig.
A polished diamond undergoes such a tremendous about of stress, heat and pressure on the wheel- you would never be able to introduce even 1/10,000,000th the pressure during normal wear.
So, no, the iperfections, which have already been stresssed to the max are highly unlikely to cause any subsequent damage.

Having said that, ANY diamond can break with even small pressure is applied, in exactly manner, in exactly the right plane.
Basically a D/IF can break when dropped- although that's a one in a million shot.

I figured you would say that.  I know some get twitchy if an inclusion breaks near a certain spot (like on a princess cut near the corner) so I just had to ask for you to just say it for everyone else. 

And yes, all diamonds can break or chip - we should always remember that.

I am thinking this diamond could make a cool statement piece if at the right price.  If the sparkle is still there then I bet someone would find that fun to own.  Still for me I am not sure how much... I go to closer to $5K but then think, this is 4cts... and I dunno.

How is everything else beyond the inclusion?  Cut nice?  Sparkle nice?  Or does it just look like frozen spit when it moves?
Elaine aka Squiggly
elaine@diamondsbylauren.com

Offline Trinkette

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Re: How Little is a 4ct I2 Diamond Worth
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2014, 02:13:11 PM »
In his initial post, David described the diamond as a "lovely honey" color with "great brilliance;" also, he said it is "lively" with a "really nice" cut. I can't imagine it looks like frozen spit, if it did, surely, we wouldn't be discussing this quandary.  :dontknow:

Offline clgwli

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Re: How Little is a 4ct I2 Diamond Worth
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2014, 03:43:53 PM »
I've had a very long weekend of cool riding to get my motorcycle endorsement so forgive me if I didn't really clarify what I was asking.  I was out on the range for 2 days after having late night classes and I still feel a bit tired today.

To clarify I want to know HOW the inclusions looks during movement. Are they just a big area of frozen spit (while the rest of the diamond has great brilliance) or does it kind of sparkle where an inclusion might be -  in spite of it. 

Like I have a feather in my yellow diamond.  Set in the bezel I cannot find it, but when it was in a solitaire I could see it. However the nature of the feather was such that not in motion I could see it but even under a loupe when in motion I could not.

So yes, you can have pretty frozen spit that becomes less obvious while moving or it can simply be there and noticeable to the same level under movement.  That is what my question was driving at.  Also does it even really look like frozen spit or funky stuff due to how the inclusion grew?   My feather doesn't look like frozen spit actually but a funky look. So not all inclusions are such that they look like real frozen spit when looking at them
Elaine aka Squiggly
elaine@diamondsbylauren.com

Offline Diamondsbylauren

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Re: How Little is a 4ct I2 Diamond Worth
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2014, 11:01:34 PM »
Hi All!
Sorry for the delay in reply...short detour to Jamaica
A dog's life


Back to diamonds- always looking for the next diamond the color of the water in the shot above....

But looking at this one in motion, I think you'll understand my fascination

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzMdJy68wRc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzMdJy68wRc</a>

David
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Offline Trinkette

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Re: How Little is a 4ct I2 Diamond Worth
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2014, 06:54:46 PM »
I say, make it into a Pendant with other diamonds.

Offline clgwli

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Re: How Little is a 4ct I2 Diamond Worth
« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2014, 07:07:46 PM »
I disagree - the more I see it the more I say it would be a shame to make a pendant out of such a large stone.

I wouldn't go Uber or anything with it, but I'd make a ring.  I'm one who hates inclusions on rings but this one?  I'd take it in a heart beat.
Elaine aka Squiggly
elaine@diamondsbylauren.com

Offline Diamondsbylauren

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Re: How Little is a 4ct I2 Diamond Worth
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2014, 05:53:45 PM »
So, here's a second example.....3ct round- magnificent cut for a stone of this color.
The stone was clean till the very last stages of cutting...then BOOM!

$9k for a coppery brown 3ct?
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gXa-AQro1I" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gXa-AQro1I</a>
David
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Offline clgwli

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Re: How Little is a 4ct I2 Diamond Worth
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2014, 06:53:45 PM »
I like that one quite a lot even with the inclusions!
Elaine aka Squiggly
elaine@diamondsbylauren.com

Offline shiba

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Re: How Little is a 4ct I2 Diamond Worth
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2014, 12:33:30 AM »
This is what I meant by frozen spit, I don't think either of these stones is at all comparable.


The videos show the brilliance and they look quite pretty, and this distance/magnification works for me. The radiant seems to have two spots on the table where the inclusion creates slash like reflections. That might be the negative for me. I don't see anything in the round video that causes my eye to be offended, even though I can see the inclusions. Maybe my eye is willing to accept inclusions that blend into the facets on coloured stones?