Author Topic: A cool page on the GIA site....but I do disagree.....  (Read 6635 times)

Offline Diamondsbylauren

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Re: A cool page on the GIA site....but I do disagree.....
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2013, 08:18:29 PM »
I think what GIA should be doing is advising consumes to discuss these aspects with their jeweler.
Of course nowadays, a larger and larger percentage of buyers are going to go the "virtual" route. So their jeweler" is a rather faceless internet site.
Looking at GIA's entire marketing plan, they are going in that direction as well.
By that I mean designing their literature to be aimed at vd customers ( virtual diamond, get your mind out of the gutter).

Think about it- when looking at the VD model- it is in the seller's best interest for the consumer to gain a sense of empowerment buying a diamond based on stats.
This inevitably lead ( note the past tense) to more and more stones being cut to specs that are deemed"acceptable to this demographic- let's call them "numbers people"

The diamond business is large enough that little fish like us can find "clear channels" that is to say cutters that still cut based on other aspects ( creativity versus raw numbers)- but the overall effect has been pervasive.
There's a lot more rounds- and more of these rounds are being cut with the smaller tables associated with idea" cut diamonds.
Eventually this has driven up the prices of other shapes due to scarcity. Which will eventually lead to more f other shapes being cut.
For now, it seems that other shape will be cushion- is it's a hot shape now.
I'm rambling....

But thank goodness cushions are by nature, more "different" than the same from stone to stone.
And also to the fact that many people do consider Y-Z to be fancy - no matter what GIA says.

BUT- prices are creeping up and up . Even though its a general rise- FLY has risen as well- the percentage difference between Y-Z and FLY has gotten smaller. Significantly so in the larger sized diamonds.
Other people are boarding this train..... :'(

David
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Offline Trinkette

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Re: A cool page on the GIA site....but I do disagree.....
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2013, 08:32:30 PM »
I'm reading all this, D. Interesting topic. I just need to contemplate a bit before responding (and be with family for dinner)!

Offline djm195

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Re: A cool page on the GIA site....but I do disagree.....
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2013, 01:41:31 AM »
D, I've been reading this right along. I totally get where you are going here but I have to respectively disagree with the possible ramifications you see for others "boarding the train" and becoming vd customers. I understand that the wholesale market for purchasing colored diamonds is much thinner now but doesn't this apply to anything in retail that becomes popular and drives up prices?

I look at it this way...let those customers do there thing. The more it goes in this direction the more it sets you up as a niche jeweler. Haven't you always considered your company this way? You have trained people to see the beauty in a booger for Pete's sake.

Let me drive this home for you. My son TJ had zero knowledge about diamonds. We never talked with each about it. To him, I just got his Mom nice gifts. When he was looking through the DBL site to purchase an ER, he would hang on any comment you made about a stone whether it was fancy or not. You see, for him it was important that someone actually see the diamond and be honest about what they were seeing. When I selected few styles for him to look at, his first question was: Did Diamond Dave see this one? What does he think?" Me: Well he thinks its cool. TJ: grins. I don't think TJ is that much different than the average Joe.

I'm with squig, T and my son....I'd buy a cool diamond over a fancy diamond any day of the week. As long as the jeweler who is saying its cool is cool himself. ;)

Take home message: be extremely passionate and totally cool. (It also helps to have wonderful  moderators and admin staff) everything goes full circle but you will stay the course.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 09:17:50 AM by djm195 »

Offline Trinkette

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Re: A cool page on the GIA site....but I do disagree.....
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2013, 08:01:18 AM »
For me, the bigger/simpler issue is the phenomenon of diamonds of all colors being purchased off the papers only because buyers feel their purchase is "safe" this way. What it IS (ostensibly) is becoming more important than how a stone actually APPEARS in real life.

So, going by the GIA reports only, a 1ct "light brown" VVS1 brilliant-cut diamond that happens to give off a gorgeous, soft pinkish hue, for example, would cost the same as a similarly sized and cut "light brown" diamond featuring crappy crystal and a hue reminiscent of wastewater.

Offline Trinkette

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Re: A cool page on the GIA site....but I do disagree.....
« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2013, 08:07:35 AM »
Also, many buyers may not realize, or they may forget, that within each specific GIA color grade there is a considerable range of hue, and that the range within each specific grade varies from grade to grade as you travel up and down the alphabet/fancy scale.

So, in actuality, a report may be far from telling in terms of WYSIWYG!
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 08:08:00 AM by Trinkette »

Offline oldmancoyote

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Re: A cool page on the GIA site....but I do disagree.....
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2013, 10:10:49 AM »
Actually, if David, or another professional, called a VVS1 "flawless" he would be in trouble FTC-wise.

(BTW, D, if you tell me the cushion in the photo you posted is GIA FLY or FY,  that'd be fine, but probably would not change my overall opinion of the stone in terms of how I feel about it, one way or another).

I don't think he would. There is no FTC-driven definition of "flawless", nor is opening a gem lab regulated... which is precisely why you can find a VVS1 (as GIA would describe it) called IF by IGI (or EGL, or...). If someone tried to sell a GIA-VVS1 calling it "this is a diamond that the GIA calls flawless", then different matter.

More semi-random thoughts to come later. You have been warned!

:1857272:
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 10:11:10 AM by oldmancoyote »

Offline Trinkette

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Re: A cool page on the GIA site....but I do disagree.....
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2013, 10:26:54 AM »
OMC, your second definition was the kind of example of which I'm speaking.

Offline clgwli

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Re: A cool page on the GIA site....but I do disagree.....
« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2013, 11:32:17 AM »
Thinking about this overnight, I really don't think that GIA should be advising anything really.  They are there for a relatively impartial grade in my mind.  Their thoughts on what is fancy or not should rest in the naming convention and not answering "what really is a fancy colored diamond?"  To them fancy is a part of the naming convention for grading and that's how it should be.

I'd rather them keep out of anything when it comes to jewelers because it isn't their job to advise me how to buy a diamond.  It is their job to grade the diamond in the ways they can and that's it.  It's up to me to decide what I want out of that information.

Just thinking that GIA is there for facts so to speak and not much else when it comes to diamonds.  So I think I would say that their answer should state that "in terms of grading a Fancy colored diamond is only one that has the word "fancy" in it"  The rest is up to me (and consumers) to decide what they want.  So if they want a name, by all means only look at diamonds with "Fancy" in the title.  The rest of us will go for what we want and not care what it is called. 

To me it is up to the seller to educate.  If people buy virtually without thinking about it, then that's their choice.  Some people really want the name (heck I still want a D/IF diamond for the grade only) and that is fine.  Some want a look and those will not even think twice about what the grade is called.
Squiggly

Offline Diamondsbylauren

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Re: A cool page on the GIA site....but I do disagree.....
« Reply #33 on: April 23, 2013, 12:09:25 PM »
BINGO Squig!!
I think you've put your finger squarely on the issue for me.
GIA has no business  "advising" consumers. their business is impartial grading- as opposed to subjective judgment about diamonds, and or grades.
David
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Offline Diamondsbylauren

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Re: A cool page on the GIA site....but I do disagree.....
« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2013, 12:31:17 PM »
D, I've been reading this right along. I totally get where you are going here but I have to respectively disagree with the possible ramifications you see for others "boarding the train" and becoming vd customers. I understand that the wholesale market for purchasing colored diamonds is much thinner now but doesn't this apply to anything in retail that becomes popular and drives up prices?

I look at it this way...let those customers do there thing. The more it goes in this direction the more it sets you up as a niche jeweler. Haven't you always considered your company this way? You have trained people to see the beauty in a booger for Pete's sake.

Let me drive this home for you. My son TJ had zero knowledge about diamonds. We never talked with each about it. To him, I just got his Mom nice gifts. When he was looking through the DBL site to purchase an ER, he would hang on any comment you made about a stone whether it was fancy or not. You see, for him it was important that someone actually see the diamond and be honest about what they were seeing. When I selected few styles for him to look at, his first question was: Did Diamond Dave see this one? What does he think?" Me: Well he thinks its cool. TJ: grins. I don't think TJ is that much different than the average Joe.

I'm with squig, T and my son....I'd buy a cool diamond over a fancy diamond any day of the week. As long as the jeweler who is saying its cool is cool himself. ;)

Take home message: be extremely passionate and totally cool. (It also helps to have wonderful  moderators and admin staff) everything goes full circle but you will stay the course.

Great post djm!

TJ's reaction makes it seem quite worthwhile ( all the hours I slave over a keyboard:)

The bolded part reflects my lack of clarification.
The people who are going the VD route are the ones encouraging th "more of the same" style of cutting.
The ones I referred to as "boarding the train" are actually places like Tiffany.
Five years ago they might have a Fancy Intense Yellow. Fancy Yellow? DOubtful/
Fancy Light Yellow?
Not a chance.
Today you can buy FLY at Tiff's

Spillover has been an incredible rise in price of lighter shades incuding FLY, Y-Z, and W-X.
Also the fact that in the Far East they are following suit by "lowering" standards for yellow color.
For the cutters it's like a dream come true.
Dealers who've never been involved in lower alphabet colored diamonds are relatively easy marks to paying a higher price.
David
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Offline Trinkette

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Re: A cool page on the GIA site....but I do disagree.....
« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2013, 12:34:24 PM »
Which came first, the chicken or the egg the trade term fancy or the GIA term Fancy? It makes a difference, I think, in how GIA handles the text.

Offline Trinkette

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Re: A cool page on the GIA site....but I do disagree.....
« Reply #36 on: April 23, 2013, 12:37:08 PM »
I had a post up last night, then erased it because I feared I was getting too far off track. However, what I said was, basically, we are seeing an increase in large mid-range and lower-alphabet graded diamonds at the big jewelry auctions, like Sotheby's Magnificent Jewels auctions.

Offline Diamondsbylauren

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Re: A cool page on the GIA site....but I do disagree.....
« Reply #37 on: April 23, 2013, 12:44:48 PM »
Whew- I thought I saw something about that then it was gone....

Abso-freakin-lutely about the auction houses.......
David
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Offline Trinkette

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Re: A cool page on the GIA site....but I do disagree.....
« Reply #38 on: April 23, 2013, 01:03:32 PM »
Thought the ol' mind was slipping a bit, there, did ya Big Guy? lol.

Offline Diamondsbylauren

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Re: A cool page on the GIA site....but I do disagree.....
« Reply #39 on: April 23, 2013, 01:26:36 PM »
Which came first, the chicken or the egg the trade term fancy or the GIA term Fancy? It makes a difference, I think, in how GIA handles the text.

This is a great question Trink- however it's not as if there's an easy timeline to follow.
A huge milestone would be the invention of the Radiant Cut. Prior to that none f the shapes being cut could properly capitalize on the cape rough.
SO- if we're starting in the early '80s a frame of reference regarding the GIA- they were not all that prevalent.

I was working for a large siteholder in the mid to late '90's.
When they had large piece of cape rough, back in the '80's and prior- they'd saw it into smaller sized pieces and cut 2ct round diamonds. The thought was that no one would want such large off color" stones. "Cheap" 2ct stones were far easier and quicker to sell.
The owners wife ( actually she was the one who's family was the siteholder) wore a massive rock. Squuare emerald cut that had been in the family for a long time.
It had never even been to GIA- I remember they sent it when I worked there.
15cts
Fancy Vivid Yellow
Internally Flawless.

Stones that were even FLY back in those days were "throw away"

So, we really can't look back to find these answers.
David
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Offline Diamondsbylauren

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Re: A cool page on the GIA site....but I do disagree.....
« Reply #40 on: April 23, 2013, 01:34:15 PM »
Thought the ol' mind was slipping a bit, there, did ya Big Guy? lol.


Don't play cruel tricks on the geezer now!
I can be a real cancerous curmudgeon
 
David
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Offline Trinkette

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Re: A cool page on the GIA site....but I do disagree.....
« Reply #41 on: April 23, 2013, 02:53:37 PM »
Quote
15cts
Fancy Vivid Yellow
Internally Flawless

 :scared:

Offline Diamondsbylauren

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Re: A cool page on the GIA site....but I do disagree.....
« Reply #42 on: April 23, 2013, 03:30:32 PM »
And they didn't even have a GIA on it!

Think of the context.
The people I was working for were directly related to the Rhodes family. The stone had a family history.
We're talking about the very beginnings of the diamond mining industry in South Africa.

At the time that diamond was cut, there was no technology for bringing out color through cut ( remember, it was a square emerald cut)
So the entire marketing of U-V, W-X, and Y-Z diamonds really only has a history span of the last 20 years or so.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 03:31:08 PM by Diamondsbylauren »
David
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Offline Trinkette

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Re: A cool page on the GIA site....but I do disagree.....
« Reply #43 on: April 23, 2013, 04:14:46 PM »
 :Bawling:

Offline Trinkette

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Re: A cool page on the GIA site....but I do disagree.....
« Reply #44 on: April 23, 2013, 04:16:42 PM »
Of course they didn't NEED a report to tell them what they had was remarkable. They just LOOKED at the stone. It was obvioius. Ahhh, the good old days...

Offline Diamondsbylauren

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Re: A cool page on the GIA site....but I do disagree.....
« Reply #45 on: April 23, 2013, 04:32:31 PM »
Yes, straight from geezerville....
I remember working on melee orders at MFS as a kid ( 23 yo) and there were fairly nice qualities available for around $100 per carat....you could buy pretty decent carat stone for $1500 retail.
David
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Offline Diamondsbylauren

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Re: A cool page on the GIA site....but I do disagree.....
« Reply #46 on: April 23, 2013, 04:33:29 PM »
Of course, having to grade by the light of whale oil lamps made exact clarity grading much more difficult:)
David
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Offline oldmancoyote

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Re: A cool page on the GIA site....but I do disagree.....
« Reply #47 on: April 23, 2013, 07:21:38 PM »
Mind you, 23 years ago (or a few more years), $1500 was worth about $5000 in today's money at official inflation figures...

http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/

Offline Diamondsbylauren

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Re: A cool page on the GIA site....but I do disagree.....
« Reply #48 on: April 23, 2013, 07:30:55 PM »
Cool link OMC!
I get $3,618.23 if I input $1500 dollars spent in 1982 compared to today's dollars.
Of course it's hard to draw comparisons due to the different manner of trading.
Back then it was rare for stones to have GIA reports.
Today, it's rare for a stone of value to be offered sans a GIA report- unless the seller disagrees
So its harder to say exactly what people were buying back then.
David
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Offline oldmancoyote

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Re: A cool page on the GIA site....but I do disagree.....
« Reply #49 on: April 23, 2013, 07:39:52 PM »
Also remember that inflation in the late '70s was galloping. The $3600 based on 1982 are $5300 based on 1978... we really have left that kind of inflation behind (fortunately).

Though as you say it is very difficult to compare apples with apples - not only is there a report/grade issue, but the technology and precision on cut was on a different level too (you could get truly well cut diamonds, but much fewer %-wise than today)
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 07:43:18 PM by oldmancoyote »