Author Topic: New Forum Member New EGL USA Question  (Read 25164 times)

Offline mitchd

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New Forum Member New EGL USA Question
« on: February 24, 2012, 12:02:45 AM »
Hello all, I am new to the forums but have been reading behind the scenes for quite some time.

I have a small personal diamond collection that includes some fancies, all have GIA reports....until today.

I bought a stone from a local jeweler whom I trust and have known for 10 years+.  I actually consider him a friend.

The problem is that the report that comes with the stone is an EGL USA (probably graded at EGL Canada) and I am not sure if they would pick up on HPHT processing, or if they list it om their reports.

There are no tell tale signs i.e., strong green flo. or any HPHT inscription on the girdle, but the color seems a little too unnatural IMO.

I will try to post the EGL report.

Any insight as to whether EGL USA lists HPHT, or if they possibly miss it sometimes would be greatly appreciated.

I am in no way trying to degrade EGL, I am just much more familiar with GIA reports for colored stones.

Thanks again!

Offline oldmancoyote

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Re: New Forum Member New EGL USA Question
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2012, 02:40:48 AM »
HPHT for colour/clarity enhancement is "relatively" easy to detect and AFAIK EGL would report it if it detected it, but recently it seems that there are subtler forms of the treatment which are not so detectable. Whether EGL US or Canada is tooled up (and has the expertise) to detect them, I don't know.

My question would be "why does this stone have an EGL report?" The choice of lab is never random - so what was the person who got the report (your jeweller, his supplier, the cutter) trying to hide or emphasise? It's not cut - GIA does not grade cushions for cut.  It's unlikely to be clarity - while it may or may not be a VS1, in fancy colours clarity plays a secondary role, unless the stone was so cloudy that HPHT has been used as a clarity enhancer. This leaves colour - and since you seem to feel it is intensely coloured, this may be where the rub lies.

A GIA coloured diamond report for a stone that size (1.31 or 1.51? cannot read the report) costs about $150 + shipping and a wait of two months (or about $300 and no wait). If you know the jeweller well, I would suggest that you ask him to send the stone to GIA, get it graded above any suspicion, and if it comes back within one grade (i.e. Fancy Yellow instead of Fancy Intense;) you will not return it and pay for the GIA grading and shipping. If not, he picks up the tab and gives you back all your money. If he does not cooperate, you can send the stone to GIA on your own, and if it turns out to be treated it is effectively a case of fraud which can be prosecuted through the courts... which is not a good way to end a friendship, but it does protect your wallet.

Offline mitchd

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Re: New Forum Member New EGL USA Question
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2012, 02:53:39 PM »
^thanks so much for all of the information!  Very helpful.

I love the color and am not concerned if it comes in with a different grade than what EGL came up with, I am however concerned about the origin of the stone (natural vs treated).

I would not have purchased the stone if it was irradiated or HPHT. 

I am starting to think that the fluorescence may have something to do with the nature of the stones color/behavior which is throwing me off a little.

Anyway, I spoke to a really nice lady at the GIA in Carlsbad and I am mailing the stone to them Monday, i will post the results and comparison between both labs as soon as I hear back. This will be interesting.

FYI the initial EGL report was done at EGL Canada, I verified this today, and was done feb 18/2011 so it is fairly current.

Offline lovecolor

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Re: New Forum Member New EGL USA Question
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2012, 03:08:31 PM »
Hi Mitch, nice to "meet" you!  I'm glad you decided to send your stone to a GIA lab.  It's better to know for sure whether it's a natural stone if you plan on keeping it or if it has been treated and you need to return it to your "friend" for a refund .  When it returns, I hope you will have time to post a picture of it along with the results...and I hope it's good news...good luck!       ;) 

Offline mitchd

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Re: New Forum Member New EGL USA Question
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2012, 03:27:04 PM »
^thanks so much :)

Offline mitchd

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Re: New Forum Member New EGL USA Question
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2012, 04:18:13 PM »
Alright guys....here we go...I uploaded some photos to image shack

 http://profile.imageshack.us/user/sturgeon123456

The smaller radiant cut diamond is graded by GIA as a Fancy Vivid Yellow, VS1, No Flo. (.51ct)

The larger stone is the one that came with the EGL USA (actually Canada) Cert and it is graded as a Fancy Intense Yellow, VS1 with Medium Flo. (1.51 ct)

Sometimes I see different colors in the larger stone, Orange, Brown, Green...and sometimes it looks pure Vivid Yellow.  It has a deeper tone than the GIA Vivid Yellow, I am very concerned about the possibility of HPHT treatment in the 1.51 as I stated earlier, so it is going to GIA Carlsbad Monday.

Offline lovecolor

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Re: New Forum Member New EGL USA Question
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2012, 05:29:48 PM »
I see you what you mean...I'm finding it hard to believe that someone graded that only as a FIY.  The stone I used as my Avatar is a .73 FIY, and looks quite yellow and vibrant by itself...but when I put it next to my .65 Fancy Vivid yellow diamond...it looks a bit washed out in comparison...but still lovely all in all!    Your larger FIY looks deeper in saturation than the .51 FVY does...a little backwards from my experience...  :dontknow:   

Offline mitchd

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Re: New Forum Member New EGL USA Question
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2012, 06:57:17 PM »
^exactly! Thanks for the input!

Once again, I love the color and just hope it proves to be natural, I am almost certain GIA will grade the color differently than EGL as the stone isn't a "pure" yellow IMO.

Offline mitchd

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Re: New Forum Member New EGL USA Question
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2012, 04:31:51 PM »
Well I shipped the diamond overnight fed ex, GIA will have it tomorrow and I requested the rush service. As soon as I have the results I will post them here.

Offline oldmancoyote

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Re: New Forum Member New EGL USA Question
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2012, 04:44:18 PM »
Fingers crossed... I'm really curious to see what GIA thinks.

Offline Trinkette

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Re: New Forum Member New EGL USA Question
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2012, 05:33:32 PM »
Me too. Thanks for sharing the photos, mitchd.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2012, 05:33:59 PM by Trinkette »

Offline Diamondsbylauren

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Re: New Forum Member New EGL USA Question
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2012, 05:35:07 PM »
Well I shipped the diamond overnight fed ex, GIA will have it tomorrow and I requested the rush service. As soon as I have the results I will post them here.

Oooh, rush service!
That means an answer within 10 years!!

( can you tell I'm a bit peeved with GIA's turn around time:)

Fingers crossed on your behalf as well Mitch
David
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Offline Trinkette

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Re: New Forum Member New EGL USA Question
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2012, 05:40:26 PM »
David! Tsk, tsk, tsk! Wash your mouth out with soap, young fellow. We'll have NO negativity here...  ::)

Offline mitchd

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Re: New Forum Member New EGL USA Question
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2012, 06:25:40 PM »
Lol oh no is the rush service slow?

I hope this turns out well but I don't have a good feeling about the situation.

Offline oldmancoyote

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Re: New Forum Member New EGL USA Question
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2012, 01:40:57 AM »
Rush service is a lot faster than "normal", but it will still take days. GIA is not able to scale capacity with demand (and rightly so, because it would probably cause a slip in grading consistency), and the diamond market is going through a boom phase.

On your diamond, I bet (based on a hunch, nothing else - I haven't seen it beyond your photos, and I'm not a grading pro) it will end up being classed natural FI/FV brownish yellow. Which, as long as you have paid a fair price for it, is not a bad result. It is a nice stone.

Offline mitchd

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Re: New Forum Member New EGL USA Question
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2012, 02:12:03 AM »
Rush service is a lot faster than "normal", but it will still take days. GIA is not able to scale capacity with demand (and rightly so, because it would probably cause a slip in grading consistency), and the diamond market is going through a boom phase.

On your diamond, I bet (based on a hunch, nothing else - I haven't seen it beyond your photos, and I'm not a grading pro) it will end up being classed natural FI/FV brownish yellow. Which, as long as you have paid a fair price for it, is not a bad result. It is a nice stone.

Well I just learned how to quote on the forum...easy enough yay, LOL,

The more I think about it and compare it to some other fancies I have, It almost seems like it might get something like a greyish, greenish yellow for example from GIA.  It also may be closer to the deep scale rather than vivid.

Having said that, I love the color of the stone, so even if GIA puts brown or grey modifiers etc it will not change my opinion of the stone at all.  I actually love brown diamonds!

The only thing that would bother me is if the stone is treated.  When I purchased this stone from a local Jeweler I had an extensive discussion with him about the possibility of the stone being treated.  He said there was no way that it was irradiated and or HPHT treated.  He also stated that EGL USA is good at catching HPHT (it has an EGL Canada report actually).  

As soon as I get the GIA results I will post them here.

Does anyone know if the GIA in Carlsbad has a quicker turnaround time vs. GIA New York?

« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 02:15:15 AM by mitchd »

Offline oldmancoyote

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Re: New Forum Member New EGL USA Question
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2012, 07:55:54 AM »
It varies. At this point in time, Carlsbad seems lighter in load than NY. You can get official turnaround times here http://www.gia.edu/lab-reports-services/turnaround-time/index.html - multiply them by 1.5 (working days) for a rough estimate of "real" times, and halve them (or less) for "rush".

Offline mitchd

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Re: New Forum Member New EGL USA Question
« Reply #17 on: February 29, 2012, 10:41:26 PM »
So all I can say is lesson learned. Through the wonderful help and advice from David I have been able to work out a reversal of the initial deal with the jeweler.

GIA Carlsbad identified the stone as HPHT processed and noted it on the report and inscribed the girdle.

GIA also gave the stone a vvs2 clarity and a vivid yellow color grade.

Once again a huge thanks to David and all of the forum members for all of the help and advice.

Please everyone learn from my error and insist on GIA for colored diamonds.


Offline Mrs Mitchell

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Re: New Forum Member New EGL USA Question
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2012, 04:05:51 AM »
Oh, dang! I'm sorry it didn't work out for you, but relieved that you were able to get out of the deal without taking a hit.

Maybe we can help you look for another stone? We are all great at enabling diamond shoppers here and we love to live vicariously through people buying awesome fancy yellows!

Either way, I'm really glad you didn't get burned.
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Offline clgwli

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Re: New Forum Member New EGL USA Question
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2012, 07:24:57 AM »
Oh, dang! I'm sorry it didn't work out for you, but relieved that you were able to get out of the deal without taking a hit.

Maybe we can help you look for another stone? We are all great at enabling diamond shoppers here and we love to live vicariously through people buying awesome fancy yellows!

Either way, I'm really glad you didn't get burned.
I couldn't have said that better myself.

I am so sorry that the stone came back as treated.  I have been a bit busy lately but was reading your saga. I am gald that you didn't get burned in the process though.
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Offline lovecolor

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Re: New Forum Member New EGL USA Question
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2012, 07:34:37 AM »
Wow Mitch...you sure got that question answered super fast!  That and the fact that you were diligent enough to take that extra step and have it tested by GIA are all good things!  Nice to see that your "friend" was willing to take the diamond back. 

So, the new question is...what sparkly colored sensation is on your radar now?   >:D   

Offline Trinkette

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Re: New Forum Member New EGL USA Question
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2012, 07:36:51 AM »
mitchd, this was really interesting for all sorts of reasons; thank you for taking us along for the ride. And, it's good to mention that, as a matter of course, GIA will always laser inscribe and note HPHT processing on a report. Regardless, I am sorry to hear the beautiful stone is not what you'd hoped... but, you do have have great instincts. Kudos to David for helping out. And, OF COURSE, we'd LOVE to join you on a journey to find ANOTHER spectacular colored diamond!  :devildance:

Offline Sweet Pea

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Re: New Forum Member New EGL USA Question
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2012, 01:49:46 PM »
mitchd, this was really interesting for all sorts of reasons; thank you for taking us along for the ride. And, it's good to mention that, as a matter of course, GIA will always laser inscribe and note HPHT processing on a report. Regardless, I am sorry to hear the beautiful stone is not what you'd hoped... but, you do have have great instincts. Kudos to David for helping out. And, OF COURSE, we'd LOVE to join you on a journey to find ANOTHER spectacular colored diamond!  :devildance:

And the church said "Amen!"  When my fiance and I were first shopping for a colored diamond for my engagement ring, I googled and googled until I landed on Pricescope, which I'd visited a few times before but had not spent much time on recently... and that's where I read person after person talking up DBL and David and even saw David posting with some really helpful and kindly worded responses.

I knew then that we had found a winner and would not want to buy such an important gem from anyone else anywhere else.

There's just no substitute for the peace of mind provided not only by the GIA certificate that comes with virtually every diamond available on DBL, but for the personal service David and his team provide, and the "pride of ownership" he and his team take in every single item they sell. 

And no, they're not paying me to say this.  :angel:  (Which is not to say I would not *accept* diamonds in exchange for telling the truth, of course...I'm no fool. LOL!)
"I will put the diamond chain round your neck, and the circlet on your forehead, which it will become: for Nature...has stamped her patent of nobility on this brow, Jane; and I will clasp the bracelets on these fine wrists, and load these fairy-like fingers with rings." ~ Edward Rochester, Jane Eyre

Offline mitchd

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Re: New Forum Member New EGL USA Question
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2012, 05:02:58 PM »
A huge thanks to everyone!  So many wonderful folks on this site! Once again thanks to all and I hope my experience can help further educate/prevent mishaps in the future. 

Before I entered into the deal that caused this drama, I had put a deposit on another stone (different jeweler).  I will be following through with that deal, it is GIA certified but I have not seen the stone, I will be flying to New York to look at the stone while closing the deal.

If David is available when I am in New York I will be visiting him with my folks, and pressure my father into buying my mom something  ;D and I am sure I will pich up a lil something for me :angel:.

As far as future colored stones......I am dealing with David only, thats it.  I can not just trust everyone around like I have been, and Davids reputation, knowledge and willingness to help an average shmuck like me is absolutely amazing. 

Lesson Learned, geh vays (go figure) :laugh:


GIA Info as emailed to me yesterday, compare it to the EGL USA report posted earlier in this thread.  Remember this was actually EGL Vancouver


GIA

CMB   6.89   6.59   4.02   1.51   *   
  • , Fancy Vivid Yellow, HPHT PROCESSED Even   VVS2   Not Pot      VG   G   FNT      STK to ETK   Faceted   NON   61 62 Needle, Natural, Extra Facet   Internal graining, surface graining and additional extra facets are not shown.   HPHT PROCESSED   



Offline brushystarling

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Re: New Forum Member New EGL USA Question
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2012, 03:40:04 AM »
Aw I am sorry for such a bad experience on your stone buying from a 'friend'.

When I first started researching and looking through the crap load of information on coloured diamonds, I was so clueless until I came to Price Scope like Sweet Pea did and found DBL.

And I've been stalking the site and this forum ever since. Thanks for sharing your story with CDI!