Author Topic: Patented Cuts?!?  (Read 11559 times)

Offline ElPasoSpoon

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Patented Cuts?!?
« on: June 01, 2011, 01:06:26 AM »
Hola All,

I do not know if anyone has ever heard of "The Eighty-Eight" which is some patented cut type for diamonds.  Does anyone have any experience with these patented cuts?  I also do not know if this issue is in another thread, but I am too tired and lazy right now to go looking!!  ;)


Daniel

Offline oldmancoyote

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Re: Patented Cuts?!?
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2011, 02:05:00 AM »
Yep. They look different from traditional cuts, and I don't particularly like the rather "splintery" appearance with lots of pinflash that the many facets give them - then again, I like step cuts and old cuts with broad facets.

In general:

1. They cost more
2. They don't look necessarily better - they do look different and some like the look
3. They are more difficult to resell and trade, and very few dealers will recognise any premium for them

In all, unless you are in love (and I mean truly in love) with the looks, "steer clear" would be my advice. YMMV.

Offline DiamondsAreForever

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Re: Patented Cuts?!?
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2011, 05:18:34 AM »
I have seen one and didn't like the tiny flashes.  I like chunky flashes as well.

Offline saqsay1

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Re: Patented Cuts?!?
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2011, 09:34:31 AM »
anybody have an example of an 88 cut? i admit I have never heard of it before.
"If the US government were placed in control of the Sahara Desert, it would run out of sand in 25 years."

Offline oldmancoyote

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Re: Patented Cuts?!?
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2011, 09:42:58 AM »
Stock photo, but at least it's a photo...


Offline ah2bqat

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Re: Patented Cuts?!?
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2011, 10:14:11 AM »
Thanks, OMC!  I'd never seen one either.  Interesting, but not a WOW moment.
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Offline clgwli

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Re: Patented Cuts?!?
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2011, 04:23:57 PM »
I think it is a neat look but the price of them is too high IMO.  Most of the branded cuts like this are way over priced in general though.

I think the outline is unique and that is what draws me in the most.  However if you set a round in some of the similar looking settings you'd have the same thing.

It reminds me of another brand of round that I've seen with a real splintery effect.  I actually prefer it to a modern round brilliant, but I'd rather have a radiant or a step cut over that kind of look.
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Offline dovesgate

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Re: Patented Cuts?!?
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2011, 09:50:27 PM »
What does it mean to be a "patented" cut? Does that mean no one can use it until the patent ends?

What does it mean to be a "branded" cut? Is there a difference?

Offline oldmancoyote

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Re: Patented Cuts?!?
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2011, 12:48:42 AM »
A true patented cut is protected by national/international patent(s). It is the exclusive domain of the patent owner until the patent expires.

A branded cut has no such protection; it relies on other means (e.g. secrecy; restricted access to certain resources) to create exclusivity, but there is no legal protection other than to the name/brand itself if trademarked. Anybody could produce a drink with the same ingredients as Coca Cola, if they could get hold of the recipe. They couldn't call it Coca-Cola.

Offline saqsay1

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Re: Patented Cuts?!?
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2011, 09:49:49 AM »
Beep. Whirr. Clunk.  ;D
"If the US government were placed in control of the Sahara Desert, it would run out of sand in 25 years."

Offline oldmancoyote

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Re: Patented Cuts?!?
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2011, 02:03:13 PM »
Hey, that's my line.  ;D

Offline Mrs Mitchell

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Re: Patented Cuts?!?
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2011, 12:40:59 PM »
The Royal Asscher is patented, isn't it? I like that one just fine. That, and the Original Radiant.

I've also seen some pretty cool branded geometric shapes. They were interesting and pretty but did not make me long to have one of my own.
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Offline clgwli

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Re: Patented Cuts?!?
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2011, 12:52:44 PM »
Jen you are right, the Royal Asscher is patented as of 2001.  It had a patent before hand but the patent expired during WWII.  After that one expired a lot of people copied it (hence the square emerald cut types today) but they must have changed something for the new patent to get it I imagine.

I'd have to ask my dad how patents work and renewals.  He's held quite a few in his time.

I know the Original Radiant Cut was patented as well.  I am not sure if the patent ever lapsed or how people tried to cut diamonds like it if it didn't expire.
Elaine aka Squiggly
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Offline oldmancoyote

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Re: Patented Cuts?!?
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2011, 12:55:37 PM »
The patent on The Original Radiant cut has expired - not the trademark, which is why GIA will call them "cut cornered rectangular/square modified brilliant".

Also, AFAIK the original Asscher cut was never patented; only the Royal Asscher (which has more steps on the pavilion and crown) is.

I don't think you could renew a patent anyway, unless you could prove significant improvements/enhancements to the original within the same purpose/concept (at least, if one could my clients in the pharmaceutical industry would be paying a lot of attention, and they'd have figured it out; since no-one does, I assume that's the case), but I'd be interested in hearing what a patent professional says.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2011, 01:03:18 PM by oldmancoyote »

Offline clgwli

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Re: Patented Cuts?!?
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2011, 01:04:10 PM »
OMC I found this again after reading it a while ago.  I copied from wiki but I found it on numerous other gem sites that I don't want to quote from ;)

The Asscher Cut
 
In 1902 Joseph Asscher upheld his father’s reputation for skill and innovation by designing the original Asscher cut. This emblematic cut was the first signature cut to be patented. The Asscher Diamond Company held its exclusive patent until the Second World War and saw strong sales internationally.

World War II
 
During the Second World War the Nazis entered the Asscher Diamond Company’s Amsterdam headquarters and seized its diamonds. The Asscher family's members are Jewish, and were thus subsequently deported from the Netherlands and interned in concentration camps, along with nearly all of the company’s polishers. During the war the patent on the original Asscher cut expired. With no one to renew the patent, other companies started to utilize the Asscher cut, leading to market confusion about the origin of many Asscher cut diamonds. Some companies chose to call their Asscher cut diamonds square-emerald cuts instead. Many of these diamonds were cut for yield and did not necessarily follow Joseph Asscher’s original proportion calculations for the Asscher cut, which specified parameters for the diamond’s crown height, table size, and facet alignment.
 
[edit] After the war
 
In 1945 the war ended; only ten Asscher family members and fifteen of the five hundred polishers survived the Holocaust. There was no company to return to: although Amsterdam was once the world’s diamond polishing capital, the diamond industry there was wiped out. This was due in part to the liberation of Antwerp, which came to emerge as a major diamond polishing center.
 
In 1946 Joop and Louis Asscher were invited to utilize their expertise and start a new company in New York. However, they chose to remain in their home of Amsterdam and to rebuild the Asscher Diamond Company.

I am not sure if/how patents differ from group to group.  My dad has held many in the engineering world.  He might have some insight into it.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2011, 01:04:55 PM by clgwli »
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Offline oldmancoyote

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Re: Patented Cuts?!?
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2011, 02:01:34 PM »
I didn't know that the original Asscher was patented - interesting. Thanks for finding this out!

However, I think there is a confusion between trade name/trade mark (the word "Asscher") and patent (the actual details of the cut). A trade mark can be renewed indefinitely (e.g. Coca-Cola), but AFAIK not a patent.

Not that this is proof, but... http://www.bpmlegal.com/patqa.html#2a and same text - so who knows who originated it... http://www.patent-research.bandacorp.com/Patent-FAQ.html#15


Offline clgwli

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Re: Patented Cuts?!?
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2011, 01:21:50 PM »
I was out with my dad this morning and for lunch yet I forgot to ask him about patents.  Silly me.

I do remember him saying that his patents have expired by now, so I do know that there are limits.

I wonder if back in the early 1900s it was done diffrently where you could extend.  I also know there are financial implications with patents too like maintenance fees but again I am not familiar how that works.

I should try to research more on the patent of the Asscher cut.  I only have information on United States patents so other countries may handle it differently.
Elaine aka Squiggly
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Offline Rubymu

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Re: Patented Cuts?!?
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2011, 11:25:04 PM »
A few years ago I recall seeing a list of patented cuts, but I thought there were pictures as well. 

Here is a list of patented diamond cuts - lgdl.gia.edu/pdfs/cutupdatechart_0405.pdf

Offline clgwli

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Re: Patented Cuts?!?
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2011, 07:19:15 AM »
That's a really cool link there.  I'll have to look later when I have more time.
Elaine aka Squiggly
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