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Author Topic: How far off can an EGL report be?  (Read 5398 times)
Diamondsbylauren
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« on: June 16, 2009, 07:47:16 PM »

HI everyone!
A common question many diamond shoppers have is about "certificates"
If a diamond is "certified" that's a good thing, right?

Today many people -certainly the readers of this forum- are aware that GIA is the best lab.
Still, we find a lot of shoppers who want to "game the system": by buying a "discounted" stone with an EGL report.
Say a diamond graded J/SI1 by GIA is $10,000.
A diamond of similar size and shape graded J/SI1 by EGL might be $7500.

How about an EGL graded H/VS2 for $10,000.
Is that better than the GIA J/SI1?
I mean, who wouldn't rather have a VS than an SI?

The problem is, there's no consistency in how far off the EGL report might be.

To demonstrate this, I'm going to use a stone we were offered by one of our cutters.

I love the stone. it's one of those super charming light browns that is almost "peachy" sometimes.

What did EGL grade this stone?
I color, SI1 clarity.

What is the actual color and clarity of the stone?
Well, at this point, since there is no GIA report, I will need to grade the stone.
I see the stone as an L ( or M) color, I1 clarity.

Let's have a look at the diamond face down on a piece of paper.
From this perspective, the Brown is easy to see.


Clarity: I think it's a great I1- nonetheless, there's enough imperfection to surpass an SI2 IMO

In the shot below you can see the feather at about 2:00
and a second feather at about 7:00.
Then a faint crystal, located pretty much dead center.


If the stone had no other imperfection, I believe GIA would grade the crystal, on it's own, to be a VS2.

Each of the feathers - judged on it's own- would likely get SI2 from GIA.
Put all three together and it's going to get I1 from GIA.
This is a great example of how clarity grading is cumulative.
You might see an I1 that only has one imperfection- but a large one.
In this case there's a greater number of less serious inclusions. The result is a stone which is pretty much eye clean.
But that's really no excuse for grading the diamond SI1!

It's important to note that the EGL that issued this grade is, I believe, a non USA EGL, which are acknowledged to be the worst. Of course once we're allowing for non GIA "certificates", it's a long slippery slope.

The bottom line: Since the diamond sells $26,950 the lack of GIA is not a concern to me, as a wholesale level buyer.
A legit I/SI1 4 carat is going to cost close to $50k

To me, the lack of GIA makes little difference- but I know who cut the stone- and that I can trust them.

To a buyer it makes a huge difference.
Say the stone was represented as an I/SI1.
After all, it's certified, right?
Then one seller is charging $27k for a stone which is -ostensibly- the same grade as the $47K diamond.

To me, the willingness to advertise a stone like this as an I/SI1 indicates a lack of either knowledge of diamonds, or integrity.
Of course it goes on every day.

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« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2009, 08:10:10 PM »

EGL graded that an I? Now that is Waaaay off even with my laymen's eyes. I do appreciate the I1 lesson because I think the process is difficult to understand. But I do think it's a darn good I1.
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« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2009, 08:18:29 PM »

NOM  cat  me LIKEE!
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Mrs Mitchell
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« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2009, 03:17:07 AM »

Do EGL publish their grading criteria? Sure, they are different to GIA or AGS, but are they were consistent to a stated grading scheme of their own? Ok, that doesn't get round the fact that they call their grades the same as GIA call them, but it would go some way to explaning why they can be so different.

Is there any consistency at all, or it is pretty much random?

Jen
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« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2009, 01:53:03 PM »

Do EGL publish their grading criteria? Sure, they are different to GIA or AGS, but are they were consistent to a stated grading scheme of their own? Ok, that doesn't get round the fact that they call their grades the same as GIA call them, but it would go some way to explaning why they can be so different.

Is there any consistency at all, or it is pretty much random?

Jen

That is such a spot on question Jen!
The answer is, no, there's no "method to their madness"

I have two stones on my desk- both graded by EGL Belgium.
One is graded K/VS1.
I'd say it's an M.
The other graded H/SI2.
I'd have to say that sucker is a G!
It's also clearly an I1, but I'd say in this particular case EGL was too tough on the color!

I really love the question because it's a common thought and a big part of this problem.
If it were possible to accurately calculate how far off EGL is, then the reports would have value as a grading tool.
They simply don't have the consistency........
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« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2009, 02:08:15 PM »

I'd like to see the K/M VS1...  Roll Eyes

Seriously, the reason I like diamonds with GIA reports is because at least I have a fairly constant frame of reference. The random thingy, especially when purchasing on the internet, drives me batty. Even if it were to work in my favor occasionally, I'm sure there are many more times when it would not. *SIGH* I'd just end up sending the stone to GIA anyway...
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Diamondsbylauren
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« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2009, 02:30:06 PM »

The likelihood of the grade being wrong in your favor is minuscule- that's an oddity.
but I suppose it's part of the definition of "inconsistent"

Here's the 1.02 graded K by EGL.
In this photo it looks fairly white- bu it's the fluorescence doing that.....


Now look at it in light that has a smaller UV content.....
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« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2009, 03:07:22 PM »

What makes the grading so random? I understand that there is always a margin of error when a subjective judgement is required, but other labs manage to control for that. What's wrong?

Gorgeous cushion, btw.

Jen
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« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2009, 03:55:48 PM »

What makes the grading so random? I understand that there is always a margin of error when a subjective judgement is required, but other labs manage to control for that. What's wrong?


Jen
Great question Jen- who knows?

One theory: Companies that give a lot of business to EGL get better grades.
Another line of thinking is that by using such soft grading EGL might gain business- in other words, the cutters know their L color is going to get an I or J, so they simply skip GIA and go for EGl...

Without a doubt there are scads of sellers that realize the grading is soft, yet advertise the EGL grades....
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« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2009, 04:20:33 PM »

I see the attraction. However, I'd worry that if the grades are unreliable, couldn't a stone be graded 'down' as well as 'up' in error? I'm guessing that doesn't happen nearly as often.

Interesting that there may be a bulk discount of a grade or two. Wink

Jen

eta I really like the facet pattern on that cushion.
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« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2009, 06:55:53 PM »

I see the attraction. However, I'd worry that if the grades are unreliable, couldn't a stone be graded 'down' as well as 'up' in error? I'm guessing that doesn't happen nearly as often.

Interesting that there may be a bulk discount of a grade or two. Wink

Jen


I'd say it's rare that a stone would be graded a higher color by the non GIA labs.

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GIAGirl
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« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2009, 07:24:37 PM »

Is there any way that pear has pink in it?  It is really nice regardless.
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Diamondsbylauren
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« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2009, 07:44:41 PM »



Is there any way that pear has pink in it?  It is really nice regardless.


I keep looking at it and thinking..."Peach"


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Mikla
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« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2009, 08:39:12 PM »

It's a beautiful stone, for sure.  You say it's about four carats?

Mikla
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« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2009, 09:00:49 PM »

Very light pinkish brown?
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« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2009, 09:32:16 PM »

It's a beautiful stone, for sure.  You say it's about four carats?

Mikla

Here's the stats from the EGL report- aside from the color and clarity which are my grades.
EGL called it I/SI1
ITEM #: R2947
Pear Shape Diamond, Loose

  WEIGHT: 4.02ct
  SHAPE: Pear Shape
  COLOR: M- Light Brown
  CLARITY: I1
  MEASUREMENTS: 14.80 x 8.89 x 4.81 mm
  TOTAL DEPTH: 54.1%
  TABLE SIZE: 67%
  POLISH: VG
  SYMMETRY: G
  FLUORESCENCE: NONE
  EGL REPORT #: 2951040021

Very light pinkish brown?

I wish- but that's highly unlikely.
The brown itself is subtle in person.....

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« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2009, 03:52:12 AM »

It does look a little peachy. It's a beautiful stone and it would be perfect set as an enhancer to a longer length riviera necklace. That would be pretty much my ultimate jewelry piece.

Jen
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« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2009, 05:12:52 PM »

Here's a little movie about the grading of this stone
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« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2009, 10:58:11 PM »

It's a lovely cut. That's how it looks to me anyhow. And it's BIG. HUGE. A monster.
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« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2009, 07:55:53 AM »

Cute video!  That pear is so pretty, but I'd almost say it's too large!  Hah, who am I kidding?   Grin

Mikla
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« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2009, 08:48:04 AM »

Quote
but I'd almost say it's too large!

Now, THAT is a funny statement! Talk about the pot calling the kettle black... a-hem.  Roll Eyes

(referring to Miss Mikla's most recent ginormous custom ring, of course)
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« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2009, 01:24:25 PM »

Too large? Is there such a thing? NAAAAA. But I love the small diamonds, too. A really yellow saturated cushion with a double halo would be just fine.
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« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2009, 04:06:56 PM »

I like small diamonds, too; like pretty little blue ones in pink tutus with side moons. 

But I'd love to get this one as an enhancer for my pearls, especially since I'm thinking Champagne color gown when we finally do the wedding.  Grin (Yeah, Dream on.  Like that could ever happen when I want a house.)
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« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2011, 04:07:53 PM »

Yikes, that's so far off. Exactly why I would only trust a GIA report. It's just not worth taking the risk of overpaying for a stone or buying something that is not what you thought because of an inaccurate report. GIA is consistently the most accurate and trustworthy. Why risk going with a different grading lab??
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