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Author Topic: at what point does a diamond become yellow?  (Read 2936 times)
firegypsy
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« on: December 03, 2011, 07:36:07 PM »

Or are white and yellow diamonds two different animals? 

What I mean is more, are they graded on the same color scale?  They seem to be.  So DEF is colorless, GHI is near colorless...and so on.  So where on that scale is a diamond yellow, or light yellow?  Is it around NOP?  Or lower?

I was just scratching my head because I read somewhere that an M color was yellow and I hadn't heard that before.  I just knew M color was M color.  But it got me thinking and I KNOW you all have the answers...so have at it!
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oldmancoyote
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« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2011, 04:36:06 AM »

It depends on your definition of "white" (or "yellow"). Since by and large yellow in diamonds is caused by nitrogen, one could insist that only type II diamonds are "white" (if they are colourless and not blue, pink, red or brown).

The GIA scale goes

D-F colourless
G-J near colourless
K-M faint yellow
N-R very light yellow
S-Z light yellow

and then Fancy Something, where it's not just saturation but also tone that determines whether there is more or less "yellow" (e.g. Fancy Dark has less yellow than Fancy Intense, but with a darker tone, however Fancy Light can be more saturated yellow than Fancy, but with a lighter tone - in other words, it's a bit of a mess).

Add in that the perception of colour is highly dependent on the optics (size, cut and observation angle), fluorescence, the environment (lighting, setting, surroundings) and is anyway quite an individual thing, and a diamond can begin to look yellow pretty much anywhere south of Golconda.

So, is "M" yellow? Well, as you say, M is M. It can look yellow in a stone cut and set to maximise that aspect (say a 4.00 ct radiant set in 22k gold), and it can look white in another stone (say a 0.50 ct round set in platinum) when observed through the table.

Another part of the answer is how does GIA grade for colour. The answer is that for diamonds that have no hues other than grey, brown or yellow, they will use observation through the side up to Y-Z; if the diamond has more body colour than a Y-Z, then it will be turned face up and graded through the table in one of the Fancy colour grades. Other colours go straight to a face up grading, and get classed using the adjective scale (Faint x --> Deep or Vivid x). BTW, GIA will grade some diamonds as Fancy White - which is not at all the same as colourless; they look milky.
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firegypsy
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« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2011, 09:37:26 AM »

you are amazing!  thank you!

I think I'm just starting to grasp this.  My confusion came in when I discovered not too long ago the browns-what are they called?  Top light browns?  And I started wondering where the heck they fall.  So really it's NOT a continuum.  It has to do with the tint of the diamonds?  So a diamond can have a grey undertone, a brown undertone, a yellow undertone etc. etc. etc. and as the saturation increases you have different scales sort of?  Maybe?

The earrings that are up for the facebook auction I saw referred to somewhere (can't remember where!) as very light yellow IIRC.  I have an M in my ering, and it does look yellow to me (probably because it's surrounded by F colored melee) but I'd not have called it yellow.  It's just an "M" diamond.  SO I was curious where the line was and what made that difference.  Mine is a flat out GIA M so nothing else is specified. 

Thank you, as usual OMC!  I learn a lot from your posts and always delight in coming across them.
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lovecolor
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« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2011, 10:29:58 AM »

I like to call "brown" diamonds  "champagne" and faint yellow diamonds "ivory"...more appealing this way!

Truth is, I only started to appreciate the "ivory" colored diamonds since I discovered DBL's website.  So, kudos to David for making those "other than" colorless diamond shades so appealing!  sultan
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firegypsy
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« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2011, 11:01:50 AM »

LOL!  It is!  I love love love my M color and would never choose another color for this ring.  It's PERFECT.  It's almost like having a color change-bright white in the sun and then light yellow in the shade.  I adore it.  It just made me realize I have much to learn!
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oldmancoyote
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« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2011, 12:13:23 PM »

My confusion came in when I discovered not too long ago the browns-what are they called?  Top light browns?  And I started wondering where the heck they fall.
There are all sorts of scales that are used by other labs or were used in the past, and "Top Light Brown" is a nicer (if less precise and no longer used) expression than N, Light Brown. Meaning they have an N level of saturation, and the hue is brown. Top Light Brown means the same thing - more or less - but using a different scale. This Wikipedia article has a pretty clear comparison of terms and diamond grading scales: http://en.wikipedia....g/wiki/Diamond_color - and again in the relevant scale you see another euphemism for "yellow" which is "cape" (diamonds from the Cape as in South Africa's Cape Town region are predominantly yellow, and much more so than historically diamonds from India or Brazil were).

Quote
So really it's NOT a continuum.  It has to do with the tint of the diamonds?  So a diamond can have a grey undertone, a brown undertone, a yellow undertone etc. etc. etc. and as the saturation increases you have different scales sort of? Maybe?
Not really. True colour is a continuum (certainly as far as the human eye can see) on which someone has imposed steps with a grading scale. There is a J which is almost a K and a J which is almost an I. The D-Z scale used at GIA is the same throughout, independent of the hue. When it comes to colours other than yellow, brown or grey, different levels of saturation and tone apply to the different grades, not least because a 90% saturated yellow is quite pleasant to look at, but a 90% saturated blue is almost black - one ends up as "vivid yellow", the other as "dark blue" so that there is some match between the label and the description a non-technical person would apply.

Quote
The earrings that are up for the facebook auction I saw referred to somewhere (can't remember where!) as very light yellow IIRC.  I have an M in my ering, and it does look yellow to me (probably because it's surrounded by F colored melee) but I'd not have called it yellow.  It's just an "M" diamond.  SO I was curious where the line was and what made that difference.  Mine is a flat out GIA M so nothing else is specified.  

Thank you, as usual OMC!  I learn a lot from your posts and always delight in coming across them.
If nothing else is specified in the GIA report it is assumed that the hue is yellow, so "Very Light Yellow" is technically correct; "M" is more precise. Which one you use, is up to you, but neither is incorrect. As a wily coyote vendor, I would use VLY if I wanted to sell the stone as a "Yellow" diamond, and "M" if I wanted to say that it is "nearly white". And some other wily marketers coyotes came up with "Champagne" and "Cognac" scales to describe light (and mid-range) browns, but they didn't really catch on, however nicer the description is.

You are most welcome!
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Diamondsbylauren
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« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2011, 12:46:07 PM »

Hi All!
OMC- awesome answers- you're such a wellspring of info!

As already discussed- the scale is linear- sort of.
If a stone has the slightest hint of brown in the range of G-Z, GIA will add hat notation in the grade- like K- Faint Brown



The stone above has that hint of brown- we love such stones as they seem to be "suggestible" to become pink if we set them correctly.
The industry term was "TLB" for top light brown- really fine ones were called "TTLB" (top top light brown) and wee generally equivalent to around I-K color
I never heard this term used in an advertising campaign for consumers...
But please, whatever you do, don't call any of our brown diamonds "Chocolate"- as the term itself is patented.
How moronic is that, but it's true.
This allows that one company to advertise they're the only ones selling "Chocolate Diamonds"- but in fact many other companies sell diamonds of that color- but they're not allowed to call them Chocolate based on that first company patenting the name.....right.....

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lovecolor
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« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2011, 01:48:51 PM »


Quote
nothing else is specified in the GIA report it is assumed that the hue is yellow, so "Very Light Yellow" is technically correct; "M" is more precise. Which one you use, is up to you, but neither is incorrect. As a wily coyote vendor, I would use VLY if I wanted to sell the stone as a "Yellow" diamond, and "M" if I wanted to say that it is "nearly white". And some other wily marketers coyotes came up with "Champagne" and "Cognac" scales to describe light (and mid-range) browns, but they didn't really catch on, however nicer the description is.

  A wily marketer coyote...am I???  Well, you can take away my "Chocolate" but hands off my "Champagne" mister!!!    troll
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oldmancoyote
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« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2011, 01:54:47 PM »

Are you selling?

Or did you invent the scale?

Otherwise, hands off my coyotes.

 Evil
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lovecolor
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« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2011, 02:06:53 PM »

No...but I have...and no...but I wish...and no...they're too cute! (at least from a far )  Grin 
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firegypsy
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« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2011, 02:16:54 PM »

 Grin Grin Grin  You guys are hilARIOUS.  I'm quite amused.

David, holy carp, man!  That is a stunner of a stone!   love7
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oldmancoyote
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« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2011, 02:37:27 PM »

OK, hands on, then!

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DiamondsAreForever
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« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2011, 02:42:18 PM »

It looks awesome on the hand as well.

I really like that canine.
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lovecolor
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« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2011, 02:50:31 PM »

OMC, what a beauty...even close up!  What shall I call her (him? )?  DD? or DC?    Huh? 
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oldmancoyote
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« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2011, 03:00:20 PM »

Her. She's Fedora. Also known as the eater of all rugs. 20 months and 42 teeth, all in working order. Sweet as pie, but don't leave her alone in a room with an old rug.

I suppose it's DHD (dear hairy daughter)...
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lovecolor
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« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2011, 03:17:00 PM »

Her. She's Fedora. Also known as the eater of all rugs. 20 months and 42 teeth, all in working order. Sweet as pie, but don't leave her alone in a room with an old rug.I suppose it's DHD (dear hairy daughter)...

Good to know, I'll make sure my dear uncle Bino is left home should I ever visit... Grin

   
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firegypsy
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« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2011, 03:57:50 PM »

so beautiful!  My girl is the eater of all writing utensils.  She always looks guilty because even if she hasn't done anything wrong...she's thinking about it.  this is her (no joke) reaching over my shoulder as I was taking notes on something trying to take the pencil out of my hand.  Silly hound.



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firegypsy
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« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2011, 04:03:07 PM »

and two extra silly hounds

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lovecolor
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« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2011, 04:16:05 PM »

They look very sweet...but wow firegypsy,  three kids and three dogs???  Please tell me I'm wrong...   Undecided  

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oldmancoyote
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« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2011, 04:27:00 PM »

The third one is clearly saying: "WILL someone please scratch my tummy? PLEASE?!?!" Lovely dogs all.
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firegypsy
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« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2011, 04:30:06 PM »

That dog spends 99.9% of his time on his back with his legs splayed.  He's a nut.  He's basically saying, "I raced for years, I'm retired.  This is what I'm doing.  Deal with it."  You can rub his belly if you like, but he really couldn't care less.  He just wants to be upside down and asleep.

as a doorstop:


LC-3 kids, 2 dogs.  The blue brindle is in both pics.  She's too classy to be upside down.
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lovecolor
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« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2011, 04:32:54 PM »

oh ok, just 5 babies in all...I was a little worried for your sanity, that's all !   Roll Eyes
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firegypsy
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« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2011, 04:34:38 PM »

that erroneously assumes I had sanity to begin with.   Wink
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lovecolor
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« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2011, 04:55:36 PM »

   Seems to me, you have a heart of gold... patpat  I think you should be the one laying on the couch with your belly or back being rubbed...         

 
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ah2bqat
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« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2011, 06:04:42 PM »

You both have lovely babies! 

We'd love a Fedora look-alike, if only we owned the property.  Can't risk teeth and claws on OPS (other people's stuff).  Cry
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